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taralej May 30, 2011  
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Hi everyone!

I've been an active member of the Rogue forum community for quite some time now and I noticed there are no Combat PvP guides. Since I think of myself as a good Rogue in all of the class' aspects, I decided to post a Guide explaining some stuff about
COMBAT's viability in PvP and including some tips & tricks
So... here we go:

Though I am well aware that Combat has its problems, I support it being a totally viable spec for Arenas (hell, it was damn viable for BGs too before the FoK & Imp FoK nerf).

THE problem about Combat is survivability. Since Combats are a lot more exposed than other Rogues, they have to do something that most fellow Rogues don't usually do - watch their health bar & stay on their toes. If you get a high enough gear level though and have the skill to play Combat (it's far from just SS spam & Killing Spree, st<F>u) which means being able to bring that guy down and staying alive at the same time, then COMBAT becomes a very very powerful spec for you

Having said that, I would like to make a statement: Combat is absolutely viable for arenas once you get enough gear & gain some skills on killing & surviving in the meantime - Combat fights exposed, it's just the way Combat is, it doesn't stun or silence as much as other builds. However the Combat talents provide solution for almost every of Combat's problems - from low AP, through low Surv & Sta, to low Burst & etc. These will get covered down this thread...

Many people do NOT expect to encounter a Combat Rogue in arenas - I still LOL every time I remember how a Warrior charged at my brother's non-stealthed Combat Rogue and got killed in 4 seconds: Gouge > Dismantle > 1cpExpose Armor + /stopattack > AP trinket + Killing Spree... :p the next time the Warrior met him, he was standing behind a pillar next to his healer The element of surprise still exists in arenas, like KSing a lonely insolent & overconfident Arms Warrior - use it...

So, here is a general Combat PvP build. It is subject to individual changes, as everyone plays PvP in whatever fukking way fits them best!

Explanations about this build:
1. No Precision - don't waste TPs on a +Hit talent. Just get Gems/Trinkets/...of Victory gear. Rule of thumb
2. No Imp SnD - yes, yes, you need it, but there are alot more important talents than this - you'll see...
3. No Combat Potency - it's useless with a 2.6 OH, which is what you're going to use most likely.
4. Offspecs - Malice - because it's freaking crit. MoD - because it's a must-have for every freaking PvP Rogue. Relentless Strikes - because it allows you to pull off some amazing moves, making most of your finishers free. Dirty Tricks & Camouflage - mandatory. Ghostly Strike - glyph it, use it - it hurts... alot... and makes your Dodge +50%

Some tips:
>1. You can do a weapon swap macro with a slow OH for Killing Spree and then switch back to your fast Off-Hand. The perfect moment to do Killing Spree is with 2x SLOW weapons, high ArP rating (only vs platers ofc), an active AP trinket (be that procced or used) and an isolated target (or 2 targets with Blade Flurry, LOL ) Learn to use Killing Spree (and Adrenaline Rush) and shut the mouths of everyone claiming Combat has no burst
>2. For WoW's sake, learn when to use your Imp Kick & Imp Sprint and when to save them and use CloS, Vanish or PvP trink instead. Remember that you do not have Prep anymore (Orly?! no moar ezmod? - YaRly!)
>3. Remember that Gouge can also be used as an Interrupt and you can even glyph it, making it a powerful PvP utility, Imp Gouge also allows you to restealth vs more stupid players or just by allowing you to LoS (6sec Leaving Combat timer <=> Imp Gouge duration = 5.5sec - think about it ).
>4. Also, do NOT forget that Throwing Specialization causes Deadly Throw to Interrupt casts - alot of Rogues have problems with getting snared by Mages and then having nothing to do against the freely-casting Frostbolt /Arcane Blast Mage standing & laughing infront of them. Believe me - casters just stand like id1ots when you interrupt them with Deadly Throw - it's both hilarious & effective.
>5. Do not ignore Riposte - it deals tons of damage, costs so little Energy that you regenerate it in the following GCD, reduces melee attack speed, which helps alot in many many melee fights, and is preceded by a + Parry talent, there is no reason to ignore that extra %Parry either since Parry doesn't activate Overpower, unless glyphed, which no warriors do.
>6. Now here comes the part about customizing your talent build. If you get either Ruthlessness(assassination) or Setup(subtlety, the 2pts on Serrated Blades[ArP] are arguable with Sleight of Hand[=+resi] and Elusiveness), combined with Throwing Specialization, you become a very very annoying Rogue to kill by casters. Ruthlessness has a 60% chance to allow you to hurl another Deadly Throw, while a well-timed CloS will give you CPs to execute an out-of-the-blue interrupting Deadly Throw after your CloS has faded.

About gemming & enchants:
O It's more than clear that you have to gem for ArP. You need to have as much of it as possible and with the fact that you'll mostly have PvP gear, hard-cap is simply not an option. You should aim to reach 600-700 ArP. With this amount of it and an ArP proc trinket (Mjolnir i.e.) you'll be ready to rock. Even soft-capping ArP could prove a challenge in PvP though. Have in mind that you're not Subtlety and you need more Resilience than it, because you're more exposed. If you would like to take the risk, then you're free to equip some PvE ArP gear.

O The weapon chain on the OH is a must-have. The MH enchant is a personal choice, though, between Executioneer and Berserker. Enchants on your gear are also a personal choice between being offensive if you think you will be able to survive and enchant AP or being defensive if you think you really get down pretty fast and enchant Sta & Resil. Or you can balance between the two - it's PvP, it's your gameplay, it's your choice.



Tips vs some problematic classes:
Unholy DK
Currently the most OP melee class is the Unholy DK, mainly because it's a melee class, but with a fighting style that fits more to a caster (apply 3 diseases, slowing enemy in the process, lock diseases, summon Gargoyle, which does nature damage, increased by one of the diseases etc). Thus alot of players are not kinda used to fighting an UDK. (was the same way back @ 3.2 when rets did 7k judgements, remember?)
Combat Rogues can beat an Unholy DK too: Garrote, trink Gnaw (it's the only stun a DK has, what else should you trink?), Expose Armor, BF + AP trink + KSpree, AR, KShot before he realizes what's happening, ghoul dies at this point, lifting a great load and reducing the chance he'll use Death Pact (DP is usable on Gargoyle or AoD ghouls too), he will most likely trinket KShot and activate IbF, Dismantle, AR + BF are still active - add up SnD & refresh Expose Armor, collect Honor/Arena Points

FrequentArguments Given regarding this fight:
1. he kait me, he haz slow - Blade Twisting, Imp Sprint, Imp DT, trink (last resort), glyphed CloS
2. he do physical & spell dmg @ d saem tiem - glyphed CloS again, Evasion
3. lol @ KSpree while bone shield is up - Bone Shield's ICD got fixed a long time ago, it will only proc once for the whole KSpree
4. how do i interrupt IbF + AoD? - just Imp + glyphed Gouge, lol... or Blind, if you're that desperate or energy-starved. A smart DK will use Chains of Ice on you and then start channeling IbF + AoD. Blind is pretty much your only resort in that case.

Warriors & Paladins both die like dogs to a Combat Rogue. "what the hell?!" - the reason is that Combat Rogues have a very very different playstyle than the other trees.
WARRIORS - Dismantle vs Retaliation, Evasion vs Bladestorm, Anesthetic poison coated weapon in bags vs Bloodrage/Berserker Rage + Enraged Regeneration, reStealth vs defensive macro...
PALADINS - trinket vs HoJ, Dismantle & Evasion vs Wings, reStealth vs bubble, Expose Armor + Kick vs healadins & tankadins

MAEG - force IB & Blink, watch Mirror Images (Water Elemental is fine - Blade Flurry ftw) and Kspree. Only fuking use KShot when Blink is on CD. Interrupt kitebolts with DThrow, remember that Imp Sprint = Gnome racial.

A little bit about weapon specializations:
1. Close Quarter Combat - +5% crit with Daggers & Fist weapons. A favorable choice among PvPers, since it grants the Divine Critical Chance, although that's exactly where the weakness is - resilience anyone?
2. Mace Specialization - 15% ArP makes this the easiest way to get ArP capped for both PvP & PvE... And since ArP-capping is a big issue for PvP Combat Rogues, this is the weapon specialization of choice.
3. Hack & Slash - 5% chance to grant an extra attack. This is absolutely better than 5% crit since an extra attack is always greater than a crit, especially in terms of PvP. Not to mention that extra attack can crit & proc poisons too... Problem is H&S is a bit buggy and has been reported on the Bug Tracker.

A little lore: Throwing Specialization used to grant FoK an interrupt too, but it was removed because of the stuff happening in this video^ as well as abuses with high-geared Combat Rogues getting pocket-healers & spamming ARed FoK right at the bottleneck @ IWB in AV or EotS Flag area forcing casters to retreat or use instant-cast spells. It was great... and then came Ghostcrawler:mad:. In addition, the PvP Gear Set2 Bonus back @ TBC used to grant an interrupt to Deadly Throw. If you take a look at the "Opportunist..." rep gear from Outland, you can see that this got changed. Do you really think they removed such an utility and gave it to the least-used PvP spec for no reason? The reason is obvious - a melee class gains a ranged interrupt + damage at the same time, which is OP.

FAQ:
Can I spec Hemospam? - Hemo < SS. You won't have KS and will basically be an oldschool TBC (nerfed)Hemmo spammer with AR... which is bad.
Can I spec Vigor & Lethality - You will move slower in Stealth (no Sprintstealth as Sprint is an utility, not a toy for Combat, remember?), Stealth's CD will be 10secs, Sap will cost 60 Energy... do you need more?

I think I covered a lot about Combat PvP. I will be happy to receive friendly advices & corrections, as well as getting some FRIENDLY discussions regarding PvP Combat Rogues in this thread.

Peace! ^^

P.S. I will constantly edit this as I get suggestions & corrections from you guys!



Edited: 3 Days Ago
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Cheaptrix May 30, 2011  
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Good post. Thanks



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Sunbright May 30, 2011  
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I bet 7/8 of rogues here didn't know anything/knew very little about combat, and it's uses and how to use it, until this post.

Keep it up.



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Fatestayjedi May 30, 2011  
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It's been a hassle about combat rogue the last week and I guess you fed up with it? ^_^
Well I'll read it later and take my time.My brain's not prepared for information right now :p



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taralej May 30, 2011  
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Posted by Fatestayjedi View Post
It's been a hassle about combat rogue the last week and I guess you fed up with it? ^_^
Well I'll read it later and take my time.My brain's not prepared for information right now :p
I love the Rogue class in all of its aspects, been playing it ever since I started WoW back at patch 1.9. Seeing forum statements about one of the talent trees being "bad, sucky, noobish, lame" etc. just drives me insane... and motivates me to prove those statements wrong

Thanks for the support so far! Hopefully we can get this thread a sticky!



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Fatestayjedi May 30, 2011  
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Posted by taralej View Post
I love the Rogue class in all of its aspects, been playing it ever since I started WoW back at patch 1.9. Seeing forum statements about one of the talent trees being "bad, sucky, noobish, lame" etc. just drives me insane... and motivates me to prove those statements wrong

Thanks for the support so far! Hopefully we can get this thread a sticky!
That video was really good!Even though combat rogues aren't as good as back then they can still pack a punch!

Really liked that they were talking in the middle of the video."I have to wait whole minutes to do it again!MINUTES!" that made me lol so hard.I'm going to watch those series of videos sometime later!

I'm considering leveling my alt rogue with combat now.Even though it's said that it's the best leveling spec I for some reason didn't like it.Maybe way back then I was just focusing on something else and not giving Combat a good shake.

Although what other people say is that with the same gear subtetly and assassination 'overall' does better than combat.Not sure about that since I haven't tried combat that much in pvp.

EDIT:Also are you considering doing some Combat Rogue vs X class guides?Or geming and other things?I think that would add to this thread and maybe really making it a big guide for combat rogues.



Edited: May 30, 2011
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taralej May 30, 2011  
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Posted by Fatestayjedi View Post
That video was really good [...] I'm going to watch those series of videos sometime later!
World of Roguecraft series 1,2,3 made by Mute aka Kishkumen from the Rogues Take Zero Skill guild on Arthas; US (as far as I remember). IMHO the greatest rogue videos of all time.

I'm considering leveling my alt rogue with combat now.Even though it's said that it's the best leveling spec I for some reason didn't like it.
Combat has the highest survivability & sustained damage in Toe-to-Toe fights. This is the reason why Combat pwns other melees & is the best leveling spec. I could post a quick leveling Combat spec.
Also are you considering doing some Combat Rogue vs X class guides?Or geming and other things?I think that would add to this thread and maybe really making it a big guide for combat rogues.
No, I wasn't considering such stuff, but now that the public addressed me I may do these things... when I have time, because I am quite busy IRL and only have a couple of free hours per day which I use to flood forums.

edit: Here is how a nice Combat leveling build would look like.
1. No Imp SnD, since NPCs die in a 1cpSnD unglyphed & untalented.
2. You need Precision & Weapon Expertise in leveling really bad, so sadly you will have to get over those 7pts.
3. I am not sure if Prey on the Weak works at all. In case it does and/or you use a slow OH for a stronger Killing Spree, take those 5tps from Combat Potency.
4. Though Evisc isn't working fine, you will be using it for leveling - the other talents in the tree are not arguable.
5. 3/3 MoD in Sub helps alot through leveling... trust me

The rotation is the simplest thing you've ever seen: Cheap Shot > 2cp Expose Armor > SS > 1cp SnD > spam SS & Evisc - profit



Edited: May 30, 2011
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HamFrozenSolid May 30, 2011  
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Should probably discuss the Pro/Cons of each weapon specialization. Also general spec; what talents are/aren't necessary.

I could speculate but admittedly don't have much experience with Combat PvP.



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Bijackar May 31, 2011  
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very nice post as Sunbright said I'm one of those 7 people that didnt kow much about combat spec and thi guide covered everything i need.

I just wanted to know the general way of opening on enemies in arena mostly mage, warriors and palas, those are the classes that i have weakness against. and like when to use expose armor or ks or evis, just a general way that you play.


Thanks,



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QTyo May 31, 2011  
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Great guide ! sticky plz



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taralej May 31, 2011  
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Posted by Bijackar View Post
I just wanted to know the general way of opening on enemies in arena mostly mage, warriors and palas, those are the classes that i have weakness against. and like when to use expose armor or ks or evis, just a general way that you play.
i did a half-page guide about mages, as well as warriors & palas, but molten forum fukced with me the only time for months now when i didn't ctrl+c my post and now it's gone... im not doing it again... just gonna say some stuff in general

warriors & palas die like dogs. warriors - dismantle vs retaliation, evasion vs bladestorm, anesthetic poison vs enraged regeneration, restealth vs defensive macro... palas - trinket vs HoJ, dismantle & evasion vs wings, restealth vs bubble, expose + kick vs healadins & tankadins

mage - force IB & blink, watch mirror images (water elemental is fine - blade flurry ftw) and Kspree. only fuking use KShot when blink is on CD. interrupt kitebolts with DThrow, remember that Sprint = gnome racial.



Edited: May 31, 2011
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Bijackar May 31, 2011  
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Posted by taralej View Post
i did a half-page guide about mages, as well as warriors & palas, but molten forum fukced with me the only time for months now when i didn't ctrl+c my post and now it's gone... im not doing it again... just gonna say some stuff in general

warriors & palas die like dogs. warriors - dismantle vs retaliation, evasion vs bladestorm, anesthetic poison vs enraged regeneration, restealth vs defensive macro... palas - trinket vs HoJ, dismantle & evasion vs wings, restealth vs bubble, expose + kick vs healadins & tankadins

mage - force IB & blink, watch mirror images (water elemental is fine - blade flurry ftw) and Kspree. only fuking use KShot when blink is on CD. interrupt kitebolts with DThrow, remember that Sprint = gnome racial.
Alright thank you, this will help a lot.



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Cheaptrix May 31, 2011  
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+1 rogue forum. I vote sticky.

Add more color, and things to spruce it up! Links, pics, builds.



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TacMedic June 1, 2011  
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not gonna lie im kind of curious about combat now that they seem to have fixed some of the bugs...the main one being scaling damage with killing spree...because my sub rogue kind of got facerolled by a combat rogue, killing spree made me cry. it was kind of amazing, i want to try it.



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taralej June 1, 2011  
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Posted by TacMedic View Post
my sub rogue kind of got facerolled by a combat rogue, killing spree made me cry
Mwahahaha!
The power of Combat, destroying every other melee class and not only...

Currently the most OP melee class is the Unholy DK, mainly because it's a melee class, but with a fighting style that fits more a caster (apply 3 diseases, slowing enemy in the process, lock diseases, summon Gargoyle, which does nature damage, increased by one of the diseases etc). Thus alot of players are not kinda used to fighting an UDK. (was the same way back @ 3.2 when rets did 7k judgements, remember?)
Combat Rogues can beat an Unholy DK too: Garrote, trink Gnaw (it's the only stun a DK has, what else should you trink?), Expose Armor, BF + AP trink + KSpree, AR, KShot before he realizes what's happening, ghoul dies at this point, lifting a great load and reducing the chance he'll use Death Pact (DP is usable on Gargoyle or AoD ghouls too), he will most likely trinket KShot and activate IbF, Dismantle, AR + BF are still active - add up SnD & refresh Expose Armor, collect Honor/Arena Points

Frequently Ret@rded Arguments Given (aka FRAG ):
1. he kait me, he haz slow - Blade Twisting, Imp Sprint, Imp DT, trink (last resort), glyphed CloS
2. he do physical & spell dmg @ d saem tiem - glyphed CloS again, Evasion
3. lol @ KSpree while bone shield is up - Bone Shield's ICD got fixed with the last update, it will only proc once for the whole KSpree
4. how do i interrupt IbF + AoD? - Imp + glyphed Gouge, lol... or Blind if you're that desperate

Have fun!



Edited: June 1, 2011
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